The Fall of the FBI

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W FORCY Radio. Well, good
afternoon, Bill Martin is here. Great

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to have you with us, sharing
a part of your day. We're going

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to be talking about the fall of
the FBI. You know, think about

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it. How has this once great
agency become such a threat to our democracy?

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You know, during the past few
years, FBI insider Thomas Baker became

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concerned with the abuses being reported about
the FBI. He notes the abuse was

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caused by a change in culture and
poor leadership. In his new book,

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The Fall of the FBI, he
attempts to answer the questions that we're asking.

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First, you know, what went
wrong with the FBI. This book

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tells of the adventure injustices and ultimate
dysfunction of the agency, including possible solutions.

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Tom Baker joins us. Now,
Tom, welcome the show. Good

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to have you with us, Wait
to be with you. Bill Well.

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Here you are as an FBI insider
and you're seeing what's happening to something that

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you were once proud of. Tell
our viewers a bit of your background and

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how we got to where we are
today, Bill Well. I was in

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the FBI for thirty three years,
and since my retirement from the FBI have

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stayed engaged with the Department of Justice
and the FBI through a variety of my

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activities, and I have seen these
changes. I wrote a number of op

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eds when I became quite concerned,
first to my attention in the Russian collusion

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investigation, and I've come to the
conclusion that the basic problem is the change

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in culture that was begun by Bob
Muller, Bob Mueller of Special Counsel fame

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when he became FBI Director, and
that was continued and exacerbated by the poor

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leadership of James Comy. Yeah,
yeah, I guess that's that was the

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root of it. But even for
Muller to have such an impact, there

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had to be a predicate before that, Tom, I mean what started to

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loosen things up to where Muller believed
that what he was doing was justin wright

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on behalf of the of the country. Was it just elitism that crept into

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the institution that worked his understanding and
compromised his mission. Well, there was

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a pivotal moment, a key moment
which I explained in the book. And

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Mueller, what you might recall,
became the FBI director just two or three

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days before the September eleventh attacks,
which happened on Tuesday. On the following

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Saturday, President George W. Bush
summoned Muller to the presidential retreat in Camp

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David, Maryland, and at that
time, at that meeting, Muller asked

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Muller was asked by George W.
Bush to give a report of the FBI

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investigation. He did that, and
in that essentially three and a half days

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from the Tuesday attack to that Saturday
morning at Camp David, the FBI had

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done what it does best investigate,
and in that short time they'd identified all

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nineteen hijackers, their associations, they're
financing all their connections that passed travel going

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back to al Qaidam. And when
he was done presenting it, the report,

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and Mola told us this, he
expected some praise or thanks, and

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instead of President George W. Bush
just looked at him and said, I

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don't care about that. I just
want to know how you're going to prevent

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the next one. Wow. Mola
left that meeting humiliated, and he said

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he became found and determined to change
the culture of the FBI. And that's

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the word he used, from a
law enforcement mindset to that of an intelligence

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agency. And that had a lot
of unintended consequences and ultimately bad consequences.

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Well, didn't that cross the barrier
between the FBI and the CIA at that

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point? Well, it changed the
mind set inside the FBI. It changed

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the way of looking and thinking at
things. And there is a fundamental difference

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in a law enforcement agency. You
exist every day, consciously or unconsciously for

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that when the time comes when you're
going to have to stand up in court

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before a judge, before a jury, before a magistrate, and raise your

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right hand and swear to tell the
truth, the whole truth, and nothing

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but the truth. So help you
God to a set of facts. Now,

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in intelligence agencies, don't they don't
deal in that. They first of

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all, they operate by deceit and
deception, and their ultimate product is an

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estimate some would call it a best
guess. And guests are not allowed in

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the courtroom. Yeah, exactly.
Well, you know, I think it's

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quite interesting because at that time,
of course, the nation then became over

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night very sensitive to the Muslim religion, and we had Muslims in our government,

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and all this was kind of really
kept you know, in you know,

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behind closed doors, so to speak. We found out about it subsequently.

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And that wasn't to say that,
uh like in World War Two,

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where we looked at anybody that was
Japanese needed to be uh, you know,

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segregated and put in concentration camps.
But you know, I think if

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you're looking at not you know,
really analyzing what's going on, and you

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realize of these nineteen terrorists, they
had some things that were in common that

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were consistent with the Muslim faith.
Isn't that true? No doubt about it.

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They were on jihad. They were
on this this this mission jihad.

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So if if Muller is supposed to
analyze and do what he can in order

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to keep this from happening again,
then you have to have a really deep

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down objective assessment of what you're dealing
with, and how do you do that

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when there's interference built in, interference
by other other operatives and high level operatives.

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You might say that we're in the
government that we're going to forbid him,

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you know from really you know,
finding out and getting the whole truth

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and nothing. But is that fair
to say? Tom ye to some extent,

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Bill And in what he did,
he did change a lot of operational

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things in the bureau, which which
then poisonous fruit later on, the investigation

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of September eleventh, which the FBI
code named pent bomb, was the first

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investigation run out of FBI headquarters.
Traditionally in the FBI, investigations are run

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out of a field office, and
you have a field agent runs the investigation

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as the case agent. He's closely
supervised by his field supervisor and over and

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above them as the special agent in
charge of that field office. Only later

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does review coming involved from FBI headquarters
in Washington. What Muller insisted on doing,

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and there was a lot of pushback. A lot of the FBI executives

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at that time told him it was
not the way to do things. But

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nonetheless he persisted, so independent layers
of review and judgment were eliminated and everything

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was held back in headquarters. That
was pent bomb. That continued. James

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Comey did that again with the investigation
of the Hillary Clinton email and then the

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Russian collusion investigation with FBI code name
cross Via Hurricane exactly, so you eliminated

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all this review and independent judgment from
field agents, and what you had the

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situation, For example, in cross
Via Hurricane, you had Struck, Peter

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Struck, who was a deputy assistant
director, making the decision to open the

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case, drafting the communication that opened
the case, signing it and approving it,

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and then he himself traveling the next
day Monday morning, to London,

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England to conduct the first interview in
that investigation. No oversight, no independent

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judgment, It was bound to end
poorly, right well, and especially when

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you start with somebody who had a
fixed end to begin with, right I

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mean, it was clear based on
testimony that he had no affinity and positive

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consideration for Juan Donald Trump. Donald
Trump being elected president really tore his guts

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from the inside out. He had
such an animus toward the president, so

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you know, his filter was already
well established and there was a clear loss

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of objectivity. Is that fair to
say? That is exactly correct. I

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explained that in some detail in the
book, and now only a month ago,

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John Durham's Special Counsel and his report
on the origins of the investigation said,

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confirmed, validated that there was no
probable cause, no predicate information,

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no justification for opening that investigation whatsoever. Is absolutely shocking. And what's also

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shocking and disappointing is that the Durham
report has not gotten the attention, widespread

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attention that it deserves because it shows
there was just no reason to open that

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investigation whatsoever. Yeah, we're talking
to Tom Baker, his new book,

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The Fall of the FBI. Tom, you know, in that situation,

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the Russian collusion, all the money
that was spent, the people's money,

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I don't know upwards seventy million dollars
that we spent for this investigation came up

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with nothing found out. It was
all a lie, started with a dossier

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that even the FBI had determined early
on was inadequate, It lacked credibility.

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But again because of the determined nature
of Struck and others within the FBI,

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they really lost track of their mission
and just become you know, became untethered,

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uh and just emotionally ran with this, I mean, in breaking the

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law, in presenting to the courts
false false testimony in order to get you

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know, a FISA. I mean, this is just it's no wonder right

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now that Congress is looking to clip
the wings of the FBI and their use

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of this documentation or a FISA tool. Well, Bill, you mentioned the

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tremendous expense. But and that's accurate, but far far more important and far

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more greed vis I think, is
the threat to our liberty, to the

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liberty of Americans, to our constitutional
rights. Donald Trump, like him,

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love him or hate him, his
rights were violated, but so are the

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rights of dozens of other Americans.
In that initial investigation car to page you

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mentioned, Fiser was subject to a
PHIZA warrant we now know based on no

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justification. The justification that was used
that was presented to the fies A court

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was that Steele Dosier, which now
we know and has been confirmed again in

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the Durham Report was virtually a total
fabrication that was relied on and an American

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citizen was spied on for over for
a year with four different separate phiser warrants.

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This fellow car to Page no matter
what you think of him, no

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matter what you think of any other
American, No Americans should be subject to

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that. It's our country military.
He needed to be respected, I mean,

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for his service to the country,
and this is what they did because

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unfortunately, I mean, forget about
his service to the country, he was

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just on the wrong side. You
know, if it was a Democrat,

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you know, it had been fine. But he was a Republican. So

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whether it was you know, Carter
Page or Papadopoulos, you know what they

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did to General Flynn as well.
I mean, And the thing is the

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other consequences, how the dominoes fell, and the impact it had on the

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body politic Tom. I mean,
even to this day, after all,

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I mean, you and I are
talking the truth, We've got the evidence,

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and we're laying this out, there's
still too many Americans that want to

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believe that there was some veracity to
this whole thing. Well that's the shame.

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And and that's a phenomenon that happens
in human behavior and human relations.

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A story gets out there, what
turns out to be a full story.

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It gets out there, it gets
spread, it gets repeated, and then

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for many many people, it's the
accepted truth. When we now know when

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you look closely at it, there
was there was no deliberate, conscious collusion

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between Trump or his campaign with the
Russians. In fact, we now know,

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if when anyone cares to look at
it, that the Russians some of

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their operations on social media were designed
to discredit Hillary Clinton because they believed,

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as did all US pundits at that
time, that Hillary Clinton was the presumptive

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winner, we would be the next
president, and they just wanted to besmirche

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hard the incoming US president. Well, there was no doubt that they didn't

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like her, I mean, especially
when she guns to them with a reset

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button. Remember that stables reset button. We're going to do the reset button

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and spelling and everything. And they
saw Hillary Clinton for who she was.

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I mean, they all know crooks, no crooks. They know that she

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was taking money, she had a
side hustle going on, all under the

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guise of the Clinton Foundation. They
knew about Biden and they already had measured

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him because he had been compromised,
so they you know, they weren't fool

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in anybody and you know, in
some regards, I got to say this,

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Tom, I was surprised that the
Russians would be antithical to Hillary because

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they pretty much owned her. You
know, It's like, if anything,

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I would have thought, just based
on the history and circumstances, they would

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have supported a Hillary Clinton presidency because
of how they toyed with her when she

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was a Secretary of State under Barack
Obama. Well, they wanted and determined

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papadophilis used. They wanted the dirt
out there on her. And because they

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build, they were absolutely convinced.
And you go back and read not you,

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but anybody goes back and reads the
papers, the journals. At that

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time, everybody thought that she would
win. Trump was surprised when he won.

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So they just wanted to weaken and
discredit the incoming US president. And

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significantly something else that's overlooked. Special
Counts of Mullah did indict two different groups

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of Russians, one individual Russian and
in a separate indictment, a group of

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Russians Russian trolls as they call them. But in both those indictments there were

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no Americans mentioned. There was no
connection to any Americans, there was no

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collusion, no collaboration, no conspiracy
with any Americans. This was an effort

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on the part of the Russians to
discredit the incoming US president. Trump had

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nothing to do with it. We
now know exactly. Well, and let's

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go back, you know again,
we're talking about this campaign that was going

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on with Hillary, and then right
before election, James Comey comes out with

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this list of offenses and you're thinking, oh my god, they're going to

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indict her, you know, and
then he wraps it up after laying the

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evidence and says, no reasonable prosecutor
would pursue this case. It wasn't his

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role, it wasn't his job.
He usurped the role of the United States

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Attorney General or a US attorney in
doing that. He was totally out of

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water, and it was totally unnecessary
for him to do that. I think

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his ego got way ahead of him, his holier than thou attitude got way

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ahead of him. He was,
arguably, and I have a chapter in

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the book about this, the worst
director of the FBI ever had. Yeah,

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it's amazing to me because here he
is, I mean, he had

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animus towards Donald Trump and to do
this, I mean, I guess his

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ego trumped, if I might say, no, pun intended or maybe pun

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intended, regardless, his ego got
ahead of himself to lay this out and

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really, you know, do some
injury to this candidate. I mean,

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it's almost like what the Hunter Biden
laptop could have done to Joe Biden.

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James Comy single handedly did in kneecapping
Hillary Clinton with this presentation, right well,

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and what Comy did, I mean, what the heck was he thinking?

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He tried, He actually tried with
Trump to incriminate the president of the

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United States and at one point the
new incoming president of the United States.

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It was so out of order.
And in his own book he abscribes the

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beginnings of the investigation in one paragraph
to the same stuff, to the same

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one conversation that Papadopulos had in London
that Durham's report goes into and just says,

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you know, that's not enough,
but yet call me cites that again.

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He makes no apology for the damages
he's done to our country and to

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the FBI. Wow, we're talking
about it once, great agency, the

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FBI. His new book from Tom
from Tom Baker, The Fall of the

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FBI, Tom, you know this
is so disheartening because we who believe in

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the exceptionalism and the greatness of America
we deserve better than this. We certainly

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do. We certainly do. So
the takeaway that we have during this this

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horrendous chapter that we're still in the
process of trying to get through, Tom,

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how how are we going to get
on the other side of all this

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madness and U you know, this
poisoning of the political marketplace that has been

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done by this elite class. Well
as regards the FBI, the culture has

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to be restored and I won't even
say change, but restored. The FBI,

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although almost from its beginning, had
somewhat of a counterintelligence mission that was

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thrust upon him by various presidents,
was basically the federal law enforcement agency,

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the investigative arm of the Department of
Justice. So, as I explained before,

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the mindset developed that we are a
law enforcement agency and as such,

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we studied the Constitution, we abided
by the guidelines of the Constitution. Now

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with the attitude that the culture has
been changed to where it's an intelligence or

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the term Muller and Comy started and
unfortunately Chris Ray is still used an intelligence

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driven organization. You have intelligence analysts
coming to the who are not trained like

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special agents to operate within the god
rails of the Constitution. So they come

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up with all these almost crackpot ideas, like the most recent one that's come

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to light trying to investigate Catholics who
might prefer to worship using the Latin language.

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It's it's so insert, it's funny
if it wasn't such a threat to

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our First Amendment liberties of freedom of
religion as well as freedom of speech.

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Yeah, I didn't realize. It
takes me back to my altar boy days

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and I didn't realize I was violating, you know, the Constitution because we

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were praying in Latin, Lord have
mercy God. It is so absurd.

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But while we're at so the culture
of the FBI has to be changed.

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And unfortunately, sometimes when you see
Chris Ray testify before Congress and different issues

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up brought up, and we could
go through a whole laundry list of them,

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he always points out that the bad
apples are no longer with us,

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you know. Struck McCabe call me
the the malefactors of the Russian collusion fiasco.

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They're dismissed, and two agents who
were at fault in the in the

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investigation of the gymnasts. They're no
longer with us. At least two agents

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who were involved almost as agent provocateurs
in the governor whitment investigation. They've been

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shown the door, so on and
so forth. But he never gets to

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the point acknowledging that it's a cultural
problem. It's not just a few bad

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apples. So the FBI and the
dj have to reform themselves. But there

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are other things that Congress can do
too as well. John. Before we

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get to that, though, let's
let's stay with Christopher Ray for a moment,

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because this is a communications issue.
He needs to be proactive and saying,

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look it, this is the problem. He doesn't even he doesn't need

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to wait because when he waits to
come to you know, to come to

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the hill and answer, it's too
late. He needs to speak to the

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American people. If he's the one
to do it. I'm not convinced that

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he is. I believe that in
what you're suggesting is that you know,

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there needs to be a change in
leadership, somebody that is clear headed and

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understands what the mission needs to be
and that can come back and tell the

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people, Okay, this is what
happened, this is the current condition of

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the FBI, and this is how
we're going to rectify and change these things,

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and to be accountable to his plan
and purpose and to be able to

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give us an update so that we
can again have confidence, because without that,

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I don't think anybody believes Christopher Ray. Well, Bill, you're absolutely

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right. And two weeks ago now, he testified before the House Judiciary Committee,

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and it was a missed opportunity.
He led off and said, Hey,

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we know we have a problem and
we're going to fix it and we're

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doing this and that or that we
did or that we did fix it,

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instead of in the middle of the
hearings going oh, yeah, we already

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took care of that. Oh well
that's news to us. Yeah, it

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was a missed opportunity. And then
instead of being forthright and admitting the errors,

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he tried to defend. He almost
tried to deny the censorship that has

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been going on, which is another
very questionable in light of the first Amendment,

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that we're in collaboration with Twitter,
which was documented a Twitter files.

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He I mean, it was just
it was just a missed opportunity. And

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of course the Judiciary Committee has a
very hard time. Jim Jordan's trying to

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do the right thing there, but
they don't have the Democrats on board yet.

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And for any real reform to come, it has to be bipartisan.

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That it shouldn't be bipartisan because these
threats to our liberty threatened people on the

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left as well as the right.
Yeah, without a doubt, it's equel

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opportunity. We're talking with Tom Baker, who is over thirty three years of

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investigative management experience as an FBI special
Agent. He has experienced with police management

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training issues, having served as a
management instructor at the FBI Academy. His

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new book, The Fall of the
FBI, How a once great agency became

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a threat tempt democracy. Tommy,
you were talking about the intrusion of the

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FBI and involvement in the last election
twenty twenty. It's no doubt that sixty

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two percent of America, although you
know, you can't talk about it because

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anytime you bring it up, you
know people you know, squash you down,

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they shut you down, they d
platform you, they say you're a

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conspiratist. But you know, sixty
two percent of the country says they don't

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know exactly what happened. They just
don't believe the results of the twenty twenty

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election. We've spent all kinds of
money and manpower to investigate January sixth,

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but nobody's interested in the predicate that
ignited January sixth, which was the election.

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Well, you're exactly right, and
there's still a lot of questions around

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January sixth. There's questions on what's
going on now. The lack of attention,

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apparent lack of attention. Well,
they've even destroyed evidence tom now too.

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Right, that's the lay that's the
House of Representatives. They're trying to

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get at that. All of a
suddenly, the so called the January sixth

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Committee of the House had this blue
team looking at security around the Capitol and

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ultimately the role of the Capitol Police
and the Washington Metropolitan Police and other agencies

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there. And they can't seem to
find those documents. So that'll have to

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be pursued as well. They don't
make it easy. I mean, it's

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like we're trying to chase down bank
accounts from overseas into the Biden family.

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I mean, it is one web
of network of deception after another. And

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uh, you know, sadly,
you know this is being manufactured from a

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ruling class of elites in our country. It's no wonder time. The people

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are losing confidence in our government.
Well they are, and the polling shows

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that they've lost confidence in the FBI, which is shocking and to people like

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me, I'm concerned because of the
threat to American liberties. But on a

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personal level, I spent my whole
life literally in federal law enforcement, thirty

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three years in the FBI, and
then since then I've been very much engaged

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with them and other aspects of the
criminal justice system. And for me,

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it's heartbreaking. Oh I bet it
was at a lunch yesterday with a group

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of retired agents and they all share
the same feeling. It's heartbreaking, I

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mean really heartbreaking. But and be
fixed if people are just willing to recognize

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the problem, stand up and say, okay, mistakes, so may we

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got to restore the culture, not
the culture, restore the culture. Well,

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the thing that's amazing to me,
Tom, you know, you look

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at these downline FBI agents, wonderful
people honoring, you know, to to

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our you know, to we the
people, and they're compromised because of that

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small percentage. Let's just say one
percent. Okay, so one percent is

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you know, is the tail shaking
the dog. And there needs to be

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a concerted effort by these you know, fair minded agents as much as they

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can. Uh. And of course, I mean we're talking careers on the

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line, uh, you know,
bucking, bucking the system. But we

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need somebody to stand up, Tom
in order to reclaim the FBI and to

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make it great again because the infrastructure, you know, all the all these

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experienced agents they're there and they just
want to go to work and do a

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great job, you know, for
themselves, the family, for the American

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people, and and move on,
not not get caught up in all this

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political morass that's holding them back.
It's compromising them. And I can only

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imagine what you must be feeling as
a veteran ATBI agent, proud of this

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agency and so many others like you
and uh, and that valor and and

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and dignity is being stolen away by
a very small minority that want to uh,

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that want to control the government and
blow up our constitution and uh really

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you know, cheat their way into
into control and power. This is not

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this isn't not a good thing.
It obviously is hurtful to everybody involved.

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And you're right, and I'm with
you one hundred percent. We've got to

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get the right kind of leadership in
place, backed by uh, you know,

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backed by the forces, those uh, those positive forces within the FBI

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that want to support a cultural change, a leadership change, and to bring

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back the honor and dignity of this
one's great agency. That's it, exactly,

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Bill, And a big part of
it is restoring the primacy of the

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constitution. Special agents were always trained
to operate within the framework of the Constitution.

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Unfortunately, since September eleven, understandably, perhaps a new class of individual

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has arisen in the FBI, the
intelligence analysts, and they don't deal directly

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with the public. They don't deal
with the searches and the interviews that directly

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affect people's liberty, but they speculate, and unfortunately, it's given rise to

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this whole idea that somehow the American
public is the enemy, not people who

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are supposed to protect and cherish and
guarantee their rights, but they're the enemy.

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So then you have these crazy things
like investigating Catholics, like the Latin

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mass ideas percolate up like that when
you have no guidelines exactly institutional god rails

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have to be restored well, and
like you said, uh, you know,

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they're collecting data and the data is
just there and it lies in files

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and it's not vetted. It's just
an idea, and without any kind of

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vetting and qualification, you get goofy
things like let's go after Catholics who who

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want to pray in Latin. I
mean, this is absurd that this is

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what has come down to because at
the bottom line time, as you know,

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this is such a waste of resources, and you know, on top

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of the fact that it does violate
our god given liberties that we need to

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cherish with all our might. Yes, it's it's it's looking for this,

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searching for a violation rather than looking
at the violations that are in front of

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them. And I mean I sound
like a broken record, but restoring within

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the FBI, restoring the primacy of
the Constitution is key, and of course

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the special agents have always been trained
in that. If I can just say

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this when I have a great recollection
and I've gone over this with other people

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and recent retirees from the FBI is
in our classroom training as new agents.

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Most of the time was spent on
studying the Constitution, but particularly the Bill

371
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of Rights, that is the first
sentiments. And we had instructors who told

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00:32:35.480 --> 00:32:40.319
us that we should not look at
the fourth, fifth, and sixth amendments

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to the Constitution as obstacles we had
to overcome. We should embrace those those

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amendments. And we were given back
then a pocket sized copy of the Constitution

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to keep in our breast pocket and
have it with us. And one of

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our instructors told us, if you
have the Constitution with you when you're sitting

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down and interviewing a citizen, when
you're searching somebody's home, if you have

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the Constitution in your pocket, you
you won't go astray, you won't make

379
00:33:13.759 --> 00:33:16.759
mistakes, you won't cross over that
line. And a lot of us did

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00:33:16.880 --> 00:33:21.359
that. Now it sounds corny to
some people, but that's what you have

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to get back to. Tom.
Tom, Look, look, look what

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Look what airline pilots do when before
they get on the plane, it's all

383
00:33:29.400 --> 00:33:31.839
first principles. They got to go
back make sure everything's the standard. Right.

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00:33:32.079 --> 00:33:37.319
They're checking you know, they're they're
checking every instrument. They're checking every

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00:33:37.720 --> 00:33:40.480
you know, every aspect of that
plane so that they don't get an oops.

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So, you know, this is
the thing we've we've gotten so casual

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00:33:45.799 --> 00:33:50.000
and just assuming that everybody knows about
the Constitution. But we have to be

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00:33:50.200 --> 00:33:53.720
reminded. I mean, I find
it quite amazing that the Bible itself,

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God tells us in his word,
I think, for every day of the

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00:33:58.319 --> 00:34:01.359
year, for you know, some
form or fashion to remember, don't forget,

391
00:34:01.640 --> 00:34:06.720
you know, So for every day
of the year, in his word,

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00:34:06.839 --> 00:34:10.480
we're reminded to remember and not for
it's human nature to forget. And

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00:34:10.639 --> 00:34:19.480
that's wisdom from somebody that by experience
realized that having a constitution and the reference

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00:34:19.679 --> 00:34:23.559
in front of you is key to
your job. And this will serve as

395
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a you know, as those those
bumper guards and guidelines so that you don't

396
00:34:30.960 --> 00:34:35.719
get yourself you know, hooked up
right. Yes, And in the past

397
00:34:36.239 --> 00:34:43.480
we had great directors like Louis Free
and Judge William Webster who constantly reminded us

398
00:34:43.519 --> 00:34:47.000
about the Constitution, the Bill of
Rights, the First Amendment, and question

399
00:34:47.239 --> 00:34:53.320
operations or undertakings that were being proposed, how did that fit within these constitutional

400
00:34:53.440 --> 00:34:59.440
guidelines? But now we have and
this is well documented in the Twitter files

401
00:34:59.480 --> 00:35:02.280
and other information that's come to light, some of it thanks to Jim Jordan's

402
00:35:02.320 --> 00:35:07.559
committee that we have Elon Musk,
we got thank Elon Musk. Yes,

403
00:35:08.320 --> 00:35:16.320
the agents and analysts participating in monitoring
and censoring the speech of Americans on Twitter,

404
00:35:17.039 --> 00:35:22.719
that is a definite crossing of a
line, and that should have never

405
00:35:22.840 --> 00:35:25.679
come about. A former Director,
William Webster, he had us saying,

406
00:35:25.719 --> 00:35:30.079
he repeated to us all the time, and I worked directly for him an

407
00:35:30.159 --> 00:35:35.239
FBI headquarters for a while, and
we always heard this when issues came up.

408
00:35:35.880 --> 00:35:40.440
We must do the job that the
American We must do the work that

409
00:35:40.559 --> 00:35:46.880
the American people expect of us,
but in the way the Constitution demands of

410
00:35:47.039 --> 00:35:52.159
us. And if that mantra will
repeated, you would never have a task

411
00:35:52.280 --> 00:36:00.320
force of agents feeding Twitter the identity
of US citizens who's speech should be taken

412
00:36:00.440 --> 00:36:07.039
down. That's just over the line. You wouldn't have people proposing anything that

413
00:36:07.159 --> 00:36:12.119
would infringe on any religious group in
America. That's just over the line.

414
00:36:12.239 --> 00:36:17.559
And that's what has to be restored. That is you're exactly right, Tom,

415
00:36:17.679 --> 00:36:22.519
that is the current condition the state
of the Union, the FBI and

416
00:36:22.599 --> 00:36:27.400
its relationship with the American people,
and you lay it out quite clearly.

417
00:36:27.679 --> 00:36:31.159
Okay, this is but we need
to get to the point we need to

418
00:36:31.280 --> 00:36:37.960
make that shift so that we're in
pursuit of those first principles that you outlined

419
00:36:37.480 --> 00:36:42.880
that will once again, you know, bring honor and respect to the FBI,

420
00:36:43.039 --> 00:36:45.440
which everybody wants. We the people
want that. We want to know

421
00:36:45.679 --> 00:36:50.119
that we can count on the FBI
that they're taking care of us. I

422
00:36:50.199 --> 00:36:53.199
mean, you know, it has
been a rough, i'd say a rough

423
00:36:53.280 --> 00:36:58.480
decade for the FBI, whether it
has to do with school shootings and reports

424
00:36:58.559 --> 00:37:04.960
that the FBI had, you know, dozens of dozens of bits of information

425
00:37:05.119 --> 00:37:08.119
and warnings about a school shooter,
chose to ignore it, and then we

426
00:37:08.320 --> 00:37:15.760
have carnage happening on a high school
campus. We have reports of the FBI

427
00:37:15.360 --> 00:37:23.840
interjecting themselves in a kidnapping plot of
Governor Whitmer. We have suggestions that now

428
00:37:24.239 --> 00:37:31.480
regarding January sixth, there could be
as many as forty FBI agents or associates

429
00:37:31.960 --> 00:37:37.280
involved in what happened in January sixth, And we still, as you said

430
00:37:37.960 --> 00:37:40.679
in your own words, we still
have not gotten the whole truth and nothing.

431
00:37:40.800 --> 00:37:45.519
But so it's been a hot mess, and this is why it's going

432
00:37:45.639 --> 00:37:49.719
to require, you know, leadership
has got to lead the way, just

433
00:37:49.840 --> 00:37:52.119
as you said. They've got to
come in and be clean and lay it

434
00:37:52.159 --> 00:37:57.480
out and say okay, and then
tell us how they're going to address this.

435
00:37:58.280 --> 00:38:00.480
And so you're going to tell people
what you're going to do, how

436
00:38:00.559 --> 00:38:05.679
you're going to do it, how
you did it, and how, and

437
00:38:05.760 --> 00:38:09.239
the results of it is so much
better as a result of this vision and

438
00:38:09.400 --> 00:38:14.639
this new uh you know, this
new leadership and energy within the agency,

439
00:38:14.760 --> 00:38:17.440
because that's what we all want.
Tom bottom line, we need the FBI,

440
00:38:19.360 --> 00:38:24.320
yes absolutely, and I don't go
along with anybody who proposes doing away

441
00:38:24.360 --> 00:38:29.840
with the FBI, of breaking the
FBI up. But but there is a

442
00:38:30.000 --> 00:38:36.039
role for Congress and there are things
Congress can do themselves to move things along.

443
00:38:36.679 --> 00:38:38.760
We know that they have the ultimate
trigger there. They have control over

444
00:38:38.840 --> 00:38:45.159
the budget and that's a threat they
can use. But functionally, one thing

445
00:38:45.280 --> 00:38:50.800
they can do is address some of
these reforms and some of the statutes specifically

446
00:38:50.960 --> 00:38:54.880
phies them, which is not well
understood. Quite frankly, the Foreign Intelligence

447
00:38:54.920 --> 00:39:02.960
Surveillance Act fies them was initially passed
nineteen seventy eight when William Webster was the

448
00:39:04.039 --> 00:39:08.320
new FBI director. He set the
gold standard for its use and it was

449
00:39:08.559 --> 00:39:15.880
used very limitedly, but very very
specifically as it was as it was initially

450
00:39:15.960 --> 00:39:22.880
required to gather intelligence on foreign agents
resident in this country. So there's the

451
00:39:23.000 --> 00:39:27.880
two basic things with FISER. It
was not to gather evidence. It was

452
00:39:27.960 --> 00:39:31.920
to gather intelligence which would be then
furnished to the national decision makers i either

453
00:39:32.000 --> 00:39:37.039
President and others. And it was
only to be used on foreigners because it

454
00:39:37.119 --> 00:39:45.000
has a much lower standard of probable
cause than criminal warrants do. After September

455
00:39:45.079 --> 00:39:49.519
eleventh, once again, this was
another thing that got off track. And

456
00:39:49.599 --> 00:39:52.719
this is something that happens throughout history
with these crises, but it got off

457
00:39:52.800 --> 00:39:59.039
track. FISER was amended so it
could be used against Americans more broader than

458
00:39:59.480 --> 00:40:04.400
American It is what they call us
persons, which a citizen. This is

459
00:40:04.480 --> 00:40:07.800
all. It was all under the
Patriot Act, right, that was part

460
00:40:07.840 --> 00:40:13.960
of it. But the Fizer Act
itself was amended and US corporations also came

461
00:40:14.079 --> 00:40:16.199
under it, and then it's been
amended again and again and again over the

462
00:40:16.280 --> 00:40:22.079
past several years and its uses had
been changed. It's become much more permissive

463
00:40:22.760 --> 00:40:29.760
in its use. The original fizes
required both the Director of the FBI and

464
00:40:29.840 --> 00:40:36.840
the Attorney General to personally sign each
application. That authority has now been delegated

465
00:40:36.880 --> 00:40:42.599
to a dozen different people in both
agencies. So it's much more permissive promiscuous.

466
00:40:43.280 --> 00:40:46.000
In the late seventies, in that
first decade or two of its use,

467
00:40:46.440 --> 00:40:51.000
there were a few hundred fizes a
year. Now there's several thousand a

468
00:40:51.119 --> 00:40:55.599
year. And thanks to the Inspector
General, we know that there are thousands

469
00:40:55.679 --> 00:41:01.519
of fizes on US persons. Well, and of course car to Page is

470
00:41:01.599 --> 00:41:07.039
the one that came to light and
that we know about. Congress can amend

471
00:41:07.199 --> 00:41:12.039
that and rein it in and get
fies it back to its original intention.

472
00:41:12.159 --> 00:41:15.760
It is a valuable tool, but
only to be used against foreigners and only

473
00:41:15.840 --> 00:41:20.639
to be used to gather intelligence,
not evidence. Well, Tom, let

474
00:41:20.719 --> 00:41:24.920
me ask you this. Because of
the nature of FISA number one, also

475
00:41:25.800 --> 00:41:30.719
the nature of the marketplace. I
mean, we've become a globalist, you

476
00:41:30.800 --> 00:41:36.079
know, economy, so you all, you have a lot of people involved.

477
00:41:36.360 --> 00:41:39.880
It's not so much that it's just
all America all the time. You've

478
00:41:39.960 --> 00:41:45.199
got nations investing and involved. So
they're coming in, So how do you

479
00:41:45.480 --> 00:41:51.199
handle uh, you know, a
FISA request and it could be somebody with

480
00:41:51.400 --> 00:41:54.639
dual citizenship. Uh, you know, And I'm not I agree with you.

481
00:41:54.760 --> 00:42:00.360
I think we need to be real
careful about how that instrument is used.

482
00:42:00.199 --> 00:42:05.719
But you know, it's some of
the lines get blurred. And you

483
00:42:05.800 --> 00:42:08.440
know, when you consider what the
marketplace looks right now, it looks like

484
00:42:08.639 --> 00:42:14.440
now with all the international business that
we're doing. Well, you're exactly right.

485
00:42:14.639 --> 00:42:21.280
And an aspect of that which which
became problematical in the origins of the

486
00:42:21.440 --> 00:42:27.639
Russian collusion investigation cross via hurricane,
which hasn't been looked at or discussed that

487
00:42:27.840 --> 00:42:34.840
much by Congress or anybody else.
Is this a phenomenon that began is what

488
00:42:34.920 --> 00:42:40.440
they called the Special relationship between the
United States and Great Britain that originally grew

489
00:42:40.480 --> 00:42:45.719
out of World War Two in the
close cooperation of World War two. That's

490
00:42:45.800 --> 00:42:51.880
evolved into a formal compact called the
Five Eyes and includes the United States and

491
00:42:52.360 --> 00:42:57.480
Great Britain as well as Australia,
New Zealand and Canada. And it's been

492
00:42:57.599 --> 00:43:01.000
codified. There's a lot of secret
agree instant connection with it has been modified

493
00:43:01.079 --> 00:43:07.760
over the years, but essentially that
agreement between mainly the United States and Great

494
00:43:07.840 --> 00:43:14.719
Britain is at its heart that we
will not spy on them or spy on

495
00:43:14.840 --> 00:43:20.639
one another, and we will share
any intelligence with each other. And that

496
00:43:20.840 --> 00:43:28.920
has there's a there's an Achilles heel
in that whole process. Uh and and

497
00:43:29.320 --> 00:43:34.360
and actually in the publications in the
United Kingdom they're more concerned about it than

498
00:43:34.440 --> 00:43:39.840
we are. They have a spying
operation, an electronic spying operation in the

499
00:43:39.880 --> 00:43:46.519
British government that rivals NSA, the
National Security Agency in this country, that

500
00:43:47.000 --> 00:43:52.519
sweep up everything out of the air, not just your conversations, but your

501
00:43:52.559 --> 00:43:57.199
text your emails, et cetera,
et cetera, et cetera. And in

502
00:43:57.360 --> 00:44:00.960
Britain there are safeguards as there are
in the United States. In the United

503
00:44:00.039 --> 00:44:07.159
States, the NSA as well as
the CIA for that matter, are forbidden

504
00:44:07.239 --> 00:44:13.639
to spy on Americans in this country. That's clear. They have similar restrictions

505
00:44:13.679 --> 00:44:19.760
in Britain. But there's a back
door. And John Brennan bragged about using

506
00:44:19.840 --> 00:44:24.519
this back door at the beginning of
the Russian collusion investigation. If the Brits

507
00:44:24.599 --> 00:44:30.840
pick up information out of the air
on American citizens, they can furnish it

508
00:44:30.360 --> 00:44:35.559
to the United States, to the
NSA, the CIA, the FBI,

509
00:44:36.280 --> 00:44:40.039
and if the NSA picks up information
on British subjects out of the air,

510
00:44:40.360 --> 00:44:45.280
they furnish it to the Brits in
that way. No, technically they're not

511
00:44:45.440 --> 00:44:51.599
spying on American citizens. That other
guy is, yes, And so that's

512
00:44:51.639 --> 00:44:54.679
been the back door, and this
back door is still open, and that's

513
00:44:54.760 --> 00:45:00.840
something the Congress should address and the
treaties should be resolved. And now nobody

514
00:45:00.920 --> 00:45:05.239
in America and the press that I
can find, seems to be too concerned

515
00:45:05.239 --> 00:45:08.280
about this. The Brits are,
for instance, and I have something in

516
00:45:08.360 --> 00:45:14.920
my book about this. When Princess
Diana was killed in Paris, yes,

517
00:45:15.159 --> 00:45:22.039
shortly thereafter they were all kinds of
investigations. And shortly thereafter, thanks to

518
00:45:22.079 --> 00:45:28.840
a Freedom of Information Act request,
the NSAY in the United States admitted they

519
00:45:28.920 --> 00:45:35.840
did not furnish it, but they
admitted they had thousands, thousands of pages

520
00:45:36.559 --> 00:45:42.000
of her conversations. This is the
United States government has thousands of pages of

521
00:45:42.159 --> 00:45:45.760
conversations on this British princess. Well, of course they were furnishing it through

522
00:45:45.840 --> 00:45:50.400
the back door. To m I
five and MI six. Over in the

523
00:45:50.599 --> 00:45:54.440
UK, the press and Britain were
very outraged about that, but you didn't

524
00:45:54.480 --> 00:45:59.639
hear a peep in this country.
Stops and things. The reverse happens as

525
00:45:59.679 --> 00:46:06.360
well, exactly. I'll say that's
something Congress can address. Yeah, without

526
00:46:06.400 --> 00:46:09.360
a doubt, Tom, We've got
We've got a less than four minutes left

527
00:46:09.400 --> 00:46:15.960
here, and I want to give
you a free form opportunity regarding your book,

528
00:46:15.039 --> 00:46:19.360
the Fall of the FBI, how
a once great agency became a threat

529
00:46:19.400 --> 00:46:24.719
to democracy. What the reader should
take away and the solutions that you offer

530
00:46:24.960 --> 00:46:30.679
in your book. Well, let
me say this thank you Bill about my

531
00:46:30.840 --> 00:46:34.159
book. I did not want it
to be all negative. I love the

532
00:46:34.280 --> 00:46:39.039
FBI. Anybody who reads the book
knows I love the FBI. So my

533
00:46:39.239 --> 00:46:43.320
sub theme in the book, or
the theme of the book is the good,

534
00:46:43.440 --> 00:46:46.920
the bad, and the ugly,
and the good is what the FBI

535
00:46:47.119 --> 00:46:51.920
has done, what it can be. And I put in there some of

536
00:46:52.000 --> 00:46:58.639
my own adventures which I think most
people would find entertaining. And I was

537
00:46:58.719 --> 00:47:02.679
on the periphery as a think you
know of some very historical cases exactly as

538
00:47:02.719 --> 00:47:08.480
the attempted assassination of present President Reagan, the Crash of TWA eight hundred pan

539
00:47:08.639 --> 00:47:12.760
M one oh three. I was
not the main character, but I have

540
00:47:12.920 --> 00:47:16.599
some knowledge of those I brought those
into it into the book to bring out

541
00:47:16.679 --> 00:47:22.280
some minor points that people might not
generally know. The bad in the middle

542
00:47:22.519 --> 00:47:29.719
is injustice. I've seen some injustice
in my career in law enforcement and my

543
00:47:29.880 --> 00:47:35.559
continuing work with the criminal justice system. I was very naive as a young

544
00:47:35.639 --> 00:47:39.719
man. I believe you know,
justice was blind. I now know sounds

545
00:47:39.800 --> 00:47:44.239
simple to say it, but there
are a few people in jail who maybe

546
00:47:44.280 --> 00:47:46.480
shouldn't be in jail, and there
are a lot of people who should be

547
00:47:46.599 --> 00:47:52.559
in jail who aren't. To be
simplify it, and then the ugly,

548
00:47:52.920 --> 00:47:55.119
the good, the bad, and
the ugly is what has come to light

549
00:47:55.599 --> 00:48:01.559
in the last half dozen years,
beginning with the Russian illusion investigation in Komi

550
00:48:02.039 --> 00:48:09.079
and Mullah's changing of the culture of
the FBI to the detriment of American civil

551
00:48:09.159 --> 00:48:13.960
liberties. And that's what we have
to be pay attention to and beyond God

552
00:48:14.039 --> 00:48:17.400
about exactly. Well. The good
news is, tom we did it before,

553
00:48:17.920 --> 00:48:22.079
we can do it again right,
yes, And whenever there's a crisis,

554
00:48:22.199 --> 00:48:28.440
these mistakes. I'm may with the
overreaction after September eleven, mirrors with

555
00:48:28.920 --> 00:48:37.679
what in World War two. President
FDA he decided to turn Japanese citizens.

556
00:48:37.119 --> 00:48:42.039
We all know that was an error, that was a violation. And another

557
00:48:42.199 --> 00:48:47.480
great president, Abraham Lincoln, perhaps
one of our greatest presidents, he suspended

558
00:48:47.519 --> 00:48:51.840
the rid of habeas corpers. I
think, looking back on it now,

559
00:48:51.920 --> 00:48:53.519
we all know that was wrong.
But he was in a crisis and he

560
00:48:53.639 --> 00:49:00.280
overreacted. And I think we overreacted
with some of these amendments after the Tiber

561
00:49:00.320 --> 00:49:05.159
eleventh attack, and we have to
correct it so no longer is used as

562
00:49:05.199 --> 00:49:08.639
a tool to violate Americans' rights.
But it goes back to what you said

563
00:49:08.719 --> 00:49:13.320
earlier, which is so key to
this. If we are we are glued

564
00:49:13.400 --> 00:49:16.440
to the Constitution and our Bill of
Rights, this will help keep us on

565
00:49:16.679 --> 00:49:22.920
course, will it not. Yes, that needs to be the guideline that

566
00:49:22.639 --> 00:49:28.079
needs to be restored in the FBI
and the Department of Justice, that needs

567
00:49:28.119 --> 00:49:34.840
to be restored to primacy. Everything
has to be looked at and corrected through

568
00:49:34.920 --> 00:49:39.039
that filter. The words of Judge
Webster when he was FBI directors still apply.

569
00:49:39.920 --> 00:49:45.719
We must do the work the American
people expect of us, but in

570
00:49:45.840 --> 00:49:51.760
the way the Constitution demands of us. Oh, perfect perfectly said Tom Baker

571
00:49:52.119 --> 00:49:58.679
said over thirty three years of investigative
and management experience as an FBI Schedule Special

572
00:49:58.760 --> 00:50:02.360
Agent, he has a experience with
police management training issues, having served as

573
00:50:02.480 --> 00:50:08.000
a management instructor at the FBI Academy. The author of the Fall of the

574
00:50:08.079 --> 00:50:15.039
FBI, how a once great agency
became a threat to democracy, Tom,

575
00:50:15.119 --> 00:50:20.800
I cannot thank you enough. I
appreciate you and thank you for reminding us

576
00:50:21.280 --> 00:50:27.400
that we have a lot of gold
in them our hills, in the infrastructure

577
00:50:27.800 --> 00:50:31.760
of the FBI, that it is
redeemable in a change of culture and a

578
00:50:31.920 --> 00:50:37.480
change of leadership to get the FBI
back on track. Thanks again for being

579
00:50:37.519 --> 00:50:40.519
with us. Appreciate you. Thank
you for the well our Thanks to Tom

580
00:50:40.599 --> 00:50:45.159
Baker for being with us today.
For more information and to be a part

581
00:50:45.239 --> 00:50:49.559
of this mighty Martinez movement to turn
to God and to save our country.

582
00:50:49.840 --> 00:50:52.639
Go to Bill Martinez Show dot com. May God bless you and keep you,

583
00:50:52.760 --> 00:50:57.000
make His face shine upon you,
and may His peace fall upon you

584
00:50:57.280 --> 00:51:00.760
as well. Go and be blessed
beyond your imagination. Take care,